you are looking at a picture of center college in danville, kentucky, home to the only vice presidential debate of the 2012 election season. >> good evening. i'm becky quick with carl can't nia. the debate starts in one hour but the fireworks begin right now on cnbc. >> vice president joe biden, representative paul ryan, their one and only debate. tonight, all issues are on the table, starting with the economy. >> hey, talk about this great recession that they acknowledge as if it fell from the sky. >> he inherited a tough

situation. the problem is, he didn't make things better. >> in a key interview today, cnbc provided a forum for the left, right and big business, as the united states speeds towards the fiscal cliff. >> there's nothing that will allow the fed to compensate for a total advocation of fiscal responsibility. >> they believe honestly that no congress could be this stupid and by god they can. >> we should be asking these guys running for president and every guy running for congress, what are you going to do? >> tonight, paul ryan and joe biden will have to explain. now, once again, carl waand bec. >> as the audience starts to take their seats in kentucky we want to run through what will be our pregame tonight for a vice presidential debate that has taken on much more importance than usual. >> on the docket john engler, a key state in the discussion president of the business table, david was director of the office

of management and budget under president ronald reagan, a republican not talking the party line on taxes at least. >> our colleague and one of the finest business minds in the world jim cramer here live this evening. paula boggs, a corporate obama backer and former starbucks executive and cosco founder jim senegal. >> our washington correspondent john harwood is on the scene in kentucky. it was fashionable not long ago to say these debates didn't matter but the last couple weeks have proven that notion wrong. >> certainly mitt romney got a boost out of the debate last week and in denver and what he's hoping is his running mate can continue that here tonight at center college in kentucky which hosted a vice presidential debate 12 years ago with dick cheney and joe lieberman. joe biden, the more experienced man, arrived first. he came, he showed a very relaxed demeanor. he went to his supporter's house did a little studying, relaxed

with his family. he's been through this before having debated sarah palin four years ago. mitt romney arrived, the le-- p arrived. we only saw him by motorcade and later did a walk through through center college here in danville, tweeted out a picture of himself but otherwise kept a pretty low profile. the pressure, of course, is going to be on joe biden to try to arrest the momentum that mitt romney generated in denver so we can expect he's going to go hard after ryan and for ryan, as for any vice presidential candidate, he wants to focus on president obama, not the guy joe biden across the stage from him. and it's a big moment for paul ryan who when he had a big moment, at the republican convention did very well, guys. >> john, absolutely, we're going to be watching those and john will be with us throughout the program tonight. we want to bring in larry kudlow. you take a look at what's happening this time around, people are tuning into this.

this is a game changer tonight. >> massive. biden's trouble is he has to stop the bleeding. the odd thing about this is, obama had his clock cleaned in the debate last week. worse than that, he had his clock cleaned in the week after the debate chasing down sesame street. one of the dumbest things i've seen for a guy who's usually pretty smart and run a good campaign until recently. biden has to stop the bleeding tonight. that's one of his goals. >> you would agree, he is a better debater than his own boss by a function of one or two? >> i guess i might agree with that. i guess i might agree with that. in relation to what obama did last week, he can't do any worse. he can only do better. i'll tell you, he has handicaps, biden. ryan is real start. if you start attacking him on taxes and medicare ryan will quietly and calmly rebut you. if ryan tries to pull the foreign policy string, he's going to have a hard time with the benghazi problem.

everyone is talking about cover-ups and falsehoods and biden has not said a word to the press. he's going to get tied up in knots over benghazi. >> a story fresh in everyone's mind. governor john engler, currently head of the business round table. great to have you tonight. welcome? >> thank you, carl. >> the debate comes on a day where you've got lloyd blankfein, simpson and bowles, on national television, on cnbc, talking debt and deficit. that's got to be one of the key issues tonight? >> it should be. it's very important issue for the nation and you've got the president of the senate and vice president there and chairman of the house budget committee, we've got two people who have their positions well staked out, it ought to be a good conversation. >> governor engler, that could get difficult for paul ryan. he did not vote for this the last time around. biden is in a position of being in the administration that didn't pick up on this either. is that why we haven't heard more about it? >> i think the president did

walk away from it and ryan voted against it, so paul ryan's got i think a good argument to make. he'll talk about the fact it didn't deal with the health entitlement costs and they're an important factor, perhaps the most important factor in getting long-term fiscal relief in place, but i think, you know, you've got two candidates the president, governor romney, they've got different viewpoints, different visions and i say let the seconds have at it. >> john, good to see you. i think one of the key themes tonight will be economic growth. how to deal with it and solve it. >> from paul ryan -- >> i think romney did great job outlining his growth program last week including tax reform. do you expect paul ryan to continue on the growth and the aftertax income increases and so forth to say here's our plan? >> i think so. because there's no question that is that third leg of the stool. you've got to have comprehensive

tax reform, we know that. i have a piece in the "wall street journal" on that topic on the corporate side. we have to have entitlement reform. you have to have economic growth. some 2% economic growth for the nation, gdp performance is not adequate. that's why nobody is in the work force and why the numbers have been so slow to respond. >> governor, you and paul ryan had a lot of success very early in your political careers. he's shown he's able to stand on stages of people much older than he is, had he's talked about this. how do you bridge the gravitas gap, being a quayle to benson? >> i think paul ryan has shown even there's the youtube clips of the president obama and paul ryan sort of tangling a little bit, but i think paul ryan will be substantive tonight. i think he'll be respectful to the vice president, but i think he will not be shy about pressing the point and he'll do it in a factual way. in april, i talked to the

economic club in grand rapids and said ryan is the guy if you want to put somebody on the ticket who knows these issues, chairman of a budget committee has delivered a budget and right or wrong, you can like it or not, but he delivered. the president of the senate and senate majority have not delivered budgets. that alone will be a flashpoint for the two tonight. >> do you think that they're going to go after each other? >> i do. >> i want to come back to taxes. it's so much fun. mr. biden has a trillion dollar tax hike. he's been very bold. you bet we're going to raise taxes on the upper incomes by a trillion dollars. ryan has the romney plan to lower tax rates and cap deductions. do you think they're going to go at it? is it better to raise taxes or lower them to improve the economy? are we going to see that picture tonight? >> i think you will. i think you'll see a renewal of the theme if you let these individual tax rates soar up you're also clobering that small, medium-sized entrepreneur who's really a job creation engine. a quarter of all those jobs are

in the hands of those folks and they're reacting negatively to the threat of higher taxes. it's one of the reasons that we've seen i think this confidence and lack of uncertainty suffer out there. in other words, people just don't know. we don't actually, larry, have a tax code really. 60 some provisions expired at the end of 2011, 40 some more are expiring this year. thog is known, nothing is certain and that's part of that big looming fiscal cliff that needs tore cleared up. paul ryan has a plan to do that. >> john harwood? >> governor engler, i just want to ask you about two economic issues. one national and one of home state importance to you. one is, we got a lower unemployment number that came out after the debate in denver and the obama team points to some evidence that the economy, while still weak, is moving in the right direction. there's some good signs. president obama also was criticized by democrats for not thumping some of the things that they believe had gone well like

the auto bailout. what would you advise joe biden to say and paul ryan to respond, if joe biden raises the issue about hey, we saved detroit, we saved the auto industry, which as you know your successor, governor snider, agreed with president obama on? >> i think a lot of people felt including president bush who started some of that in motion you had to do things to get the auto industry back on a solid footing and there was a clear debate about when the bankruptcy had to occur. there really wasn't in the bailout sort of a ignoring of the fact it was going to be a bankruptcy. i think it was a debate about the timing. the auto industry is a lot smaller today, more competitive but still plenty of challenges, i would be talking about where do we go interest here because we're not out of the woods yet. when you look to the first comment, john, about the overall

economy and the lower unemployment rate, finally coming below 8% after 40 some months, think what you have to look at is the fact we have so many people not in the work force and i think american families all have been touched by the depth of this recession. everybody's got somebody in the family that suffered. my sense on this is that, you know, people look at this pretty personally and how is it impacting them, how is it impacting their community. there's no case to be made that we ought to be feeling real good about where we are. we still got a long way back and this recovery has been very tep tepid. >> governor, thank you very much for joining us today. john, we'll be back in a moment. john and larry will stay with us. we will look for that tomorrow, that op-ed. when we come back, jim cramer on the stocks going up faster than mitt romney's poll numbers because of mitt romney's poll numbers. >> up next, a republican with a different view of thou fix america's fiscal mess. david stockman served in the reagan administration but he's not talking tax cuts, quite the

opposite. larry kudlow will take him on. we count you down to the vice presidential debate in danville, kentucky.

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lowest price, guaranteed. ♪ sleep train ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ you are looking at what is sure to be a big focus of tonight's debate. america's ticking debt clock. earlier today on cnbc the co-chairs of the debt commission sounded off on that and the fiscal cliff. an interview exclusive right here on cnbc. >> if we do nothing, next year, you'll have the rate of growth slow to somewhere like 3% to 5%. you'll have unemployment go up another 2% to around above 9%. and 2 million more people will lose their jobs. and we're doing nothing about it. >> it's very serious. i think the candidates know how serious it is and trying to avoid it, maybe in part because

it's consequential and the ideas that have to be put forward will be unaracktive to some people. we're in a position where new discipline will have to be imposed, people will be disappointed in the consequence and i think they're going to avoid it. >> amazing television on this network. want to bring in david stockman, director of the office of management and budget under president reagan and larry kudlow is here. david, welcome back. good to have you. >> thank you. >> obviously i think even ryan's critics might argue he crystallizes the urgency regarding debt in this country, maybe better than anyone else. i wonder if you think that's going to be effective in the face of what we guess is going to be a newly aggressive biden? >> well, i think there will be a lot of sound and fury, but it won't signify much because on the basic core issues of the budget there really isn't that much difference between the two sides and they're both wrong. ryan says $800 billion for social security. we're not going to touch it ever. $600 billion for medicare, i'll

get to it ten years from now. what are we going to do for the next decade? defense, $700 billion, we're going to raise it. the tiny corner of the budget he's talking about domestic, is he going to cut veterans $80 billion? homeland security 50 billion? i don't think so. in other words the budget doesn't add up that he's proposed. they don't have the right to stand in front of the public and say we're going to give you a huge tax increase because they haven't earned it by taking a tough position and being honest on spending cuts. >> david, i think that romney's budget is actually tougher than ryan's budget. ryan's budget, i acknowledge, some of your criticisms, not the spirit, but i think some of the facts are probably true, he used cbo growth numbers so that hurt him. but romney wants to take out $500 billion roughly per year cumulative, comes close to $2 trillion in the first term, and romney has stated, david, that he would extend the eligibility

requirements for social security and cut back on the cost of living and do likewise on medicare. in other words, i think you're overlooking you can go after ryan all you want but you're overlooking romney's plan which is tougher than ryan and, of course, if romney wins he's going to be the dealmaker, david. >> well, larry, the thing is, defense he wants to raise $700 billion. that's a cutting issue on capitol hill. we learned way back 30 years ago you can't drastically cut domestic programs if you're trying to raise defense and we have a $700 billion defense budget we don't need. social security, he might want to reform it in the bye but we need a cut for affluent retirees right now, next year and the year after, not some some 20 or 30 year horizon. >> you're not going to grow the economy, my friend, you know this, you've heard me say this publicly and privately, we've known each other a long time and i'm still grateful to have been your deputy but i think your emphasis is wrong. you are not going to cut your

spending on the way to a growth budget. you have to have some tax incentive ibs particularly on the corporate side, more efficient tax code at lower rates. if you grow this economy at 4% david stockman, it makes it easier to get that debt down than if you only grow it at 2%. that's the point i'm making. i'm glad to see romney after some prod big guys like me, are finally making that point. growth is essential. you know how those numbers work. >> of course that's true, larry, but when you're broke, when you're on the edge of insolvency where we are, you have to pay your bills whether it's convenient or not. we can't wait for the growth in the buy and buy. there's 3% growth built into these projections and they're still terrible. we can't go back 30 years. we have to look at where we are now. we've had a party for 30 years. we have $16 trillion of national debt and it's rising by the day.

we're not paying the real interest costs on that and some day we will when the fed stops printing money. and you put all that together, and you can't simply dream about growth. you have to make tough decisions, make choices, make tradeoffs, and really eat your broccoli now, even if it causes the economy to weaken for a period of time. we can't keep putting this kind of burden on future generations. >> i don't see why you can't do both at the same time. i don't see why you can't have tax simplification and budget restraint and entitlement reform. i think mitt romney is a grand design deal maker, david stockman. i don't think obama can do it. i think that's what romney did for a living and i think that's the point you're missing about mitt. >> well, larry, we've had tax cuts, tax credits, tax stimulus, every kind of imaginable tax effort to boost the economy for the last 10 or 20 years.

we're collecting 15% of gdp, the lowest since harry truman. the point is, there's no room left for this kind of stuff. we're going to have to actually raise more, even if it harms growth in the short run because you just can't keep borrowing at this rate. push comes to shove, we're at the point where we have to face the music, i think. >> david, want to thank you very much for joining us today. david stockman. up next tonight, a man who really needs no introduction. >> it is cramer time. evening jim. >> hey, guys. other people want to make friends i'm going to help you make money off the debates. i have stocks that will move and can make you money tonight. i got one in particular that's going to knock your socks off.

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[ male announcer ] the endlessly customizable 2013 smart. we have just more than a half hour to go before the one and only vice presidential debate of the 2012 election season. jim cramer host of "mad money" and "squawk on the street" here to get a handle on it. you talk about this fol crom names that pivot around the election coal is one big area. >> it's not one big area it's the shooting match. i cannot believe it. i could put up a chart of peabody, btu, you love that symbol and it looks exactly like a gallup poll. i mean it literally is lock step. if i showed it to you you would say is that how he's doing in ohio? look at the lever that was the last debate. why? because unlike a fiscal cliff, unlike big budgets what you were talking about before with larry, this is the day you come in you

fire the guy at the epa that doesn't like coal and put a guy in the epa who would rather eat coal than wheatties. >> enough to offset china, anything regarding china and coal. >> that's a different story. if you want to play the earnings game it's not enough to offset. i would prefer to be in union pacific. they take west coast coal, so to speak, or csx, but if you want to be where the action is, the fast money guys are doing peabody now. what's the best thing for people at home? it's southern. if the epa does pull back they can spend a lot less money trying to make coal clean and give you bigger dividends. >> we looked at that chart over the last week but if you were to go back over six months or something and then try to figure out whether it's worth it and how much risk is priced in if president obama is re-elected what happens to the stock? >> you're stuck with the gdp, world growth, the idea that maybe china is realizes that there's 700,000 people over here

getting respiratory illnesses and cut back on coal. peabody can send coal over there otherwise you're stuck with american coal companies because natural gas is doing well. this is a trade in investment as a company that pays a good dividend to have a bigger dividend because a certain person comes in. >> not the only sector. there's banks, energy, defense. >> well look, you've got -- you have a candidate in romney who has made it very clear he wants to stril in a lot of places. you want to drill in federal lands, get that through, that's what halliburton, they report next week, what they'll be in. smack in the middle of a bad quarter thinking listen he's saying drill, halliburton is the winner because they do domestic drilling. that's a tougher one. defense is interesting. these guys don't have a lot of control over defense budget. say you want to have -- i want more nuclear submarines i will give a big contract. those things cost a fortune. we don't have that money anymore. >> romney has called for five

subs. >> you buy general dynamics and short it under obama because he' bringing up the private jet thing again. you and i want a gulfstream. and that's the only fol crumb name. the president did bash private jets. that's like the good old days. but yes, electric boat gets those contracts. they know how to make the best submarines in the world. >> you look at this as a mercenary, find ways to see what's going to happen no matter what happens. >> it's not about friends. look, take chesapeake, chesapeake is a company that wants to drill everywhere, second largest driller for natural gas and bingo, i mean that's a romney name like it or not. >> thank you so much. >> great to work with you. see you in the morning. >> right back up, when we come back after this debating the state of business made in the usa and how the election could change the game. >> we have one former top corporate executive backing the president and former director of the congressional budget office

in the george w. bush years. famous vp debates of the past. >> i have as much experience in the congress as jack kennedy did. >> i served with jack kennedy, i knew jack kennedy, jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you're no jack kennedy. >> why the line of all lines, next up which vp candidate is more likely to be a loose cannon tonight. it might not be who you think. we're coming right back. don't just watch tonight's vice presidential debate on cnbc, participate in it. the cnbc twiker will run at the bottom of your screen. tweet your thoughts to us at #cnbc 2012 and watch your comments roll and go to cnbc.com to vote in the poll. tell us which vice presidential candidate you think had the upper hand.

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oops. as the vice presidential candidates prepare to go head to head, republican and be democratic strategists are holding their breath. >> what's your personal best? >> under 3, i think high 2s. >> kind of forget what my time was. >> come on? everyone knows their marathon time. in tonight's debate what paul ryan and joe biden must do to help their chances. and what they can't do to hurt their presidential running mates. now once again, here's carl quintanilla and becky quick. >> welcome back. the countdown is on to tonight's

vice presidential debate. >> john is in kentucky putting tonight's contest into historical perspective. we saw the lloyd benson/dan quayle smack down but that's not the only moment we've seen in the vice presidential debates. >> it's not. if you look back at the history of these, they only started in 1976, you can see some of the object lessons for both of those candidates. let's talk about 1976 bob dole and walter mondale, the classic example neither side wants to commit, a self-inflicted error of a very large proportion. >> added up the killed and wounded, democrat wars in this century will be about 1.6 million americans enough to fill the city of detroit. >> senator dole has richly earned his reputation as a hatchet man by implying and stating that world war ii and the korean war were democratic wars. >> now for paul ryan, he's got to worry as a younger candidate

against inadvertently walking into a buzz saw against a more experienced opponent the way dan quayle walked into this line from lloyd benson. take a listen. >> i have as much experience in the congress as jack kennedy did when he sought the presidency. i will be prepared to deal with the people in the bush administration if that unfortunate event would ever occur. >> senator bentsen. >> senator, i served with jack kennedy, i knew jack kennedy, jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you're no jack kennedy. >> now here's an object lesson for joe biden in a positive sense. eight years ago, dick cheney sat down against john edwards and he helped george w. bush stop the bleeding from bush's poor debate against john kerry. here's how that went. >> your hometown newspaper has

taken to calling you senator gone. you've got one of the worst attendance records in the united states senate. the first time i ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight. >> that was a complete distortion of my record. i know that won't come as a shock. it's amazing to hear him criticize my record or john kerry's. >> 30 seconds. >> i think his record speaks for itself and frankly it's not very distinguished. >> so what you have there is an older, experienced vice president, adopting just the right tone of kunds sencion to a younger rival. joe biden will try to do that against paul ryan tonight, guys. >> man, watching those clips -- >> gets us ready. >> spicy already. thank you so much, john harwood, in kentucky. what are businesses listening for? >> paul what boggs the former starbucks counsel and obama supporter. doug was senator john mccain's economic adviser during the 2008 presidential campaign. and paula, what does business want to hear? we heard an awful lot about bowles-simpson today, heard them

talking about cnbc earlier. is that what business is looking for? >> business really wants to hear a plan that is built for the future. the economy is hurting right now and the very most important thing here is to stop the bleeding, continue the growth. it is really important to hear a vision for the future that includes fiscal responsibility, but also recognizes we're in this together. >> you know, doug, you think about a plan for the future, and what i have heard from just about everybody who endorses bowles-simpson it should not be taking place overnight, they would like to see something down the road. where do you think we start getting some traction with that and get both sides working together? >> i think the important thing tonight becky, is to first hear

an appreciation of the business community. the past four years the business community has i think correctly felt that they were ridiculed, attacked and the policies weren't supportive. if you look at the problems that face them, it's threats of higher taxes and they're looking for tax reform, begging to be internationally kettive with our tax code, going to listen for that, looking for genuine medicare reform, the big number that drives the future debt and there has to be a policy that people can stand behind there and obviously, you know, they really have been concerned about the regulatory burden. again and again they ask can we just have someone who will prove that the benefits merit the cost that they are bearing when they look at the regulations. i think the past four years have left them quite nervous about the future and they're looking for a stronger statement, certainly out of the president, the vice president tonight, and they're expecting that out of paul ryan. >> paula, i mean a lot of people have looked back at biden's treatment of sarah palin a few years ago, one of the best things that's been said about

it, the restraint he used in dissecting that candidate in that debate but we know his job tonight is somewhat of an attack dog. do you want to see him go hard? does he have to make up ground where the president left off last time? >> i think both joe biden and paul ryan are going to be incredibly well prepared. they're both hugely experienced politicians and joe biden, of course, brings to the equation a generation of experience, including service as chair of the senate armed services committee and i think that what you will hear from joe biden is the passion we've come to expect from him, but he will also be incredibly well prepared in my view. >> john harwood? >> guys, i would just like to ask both paula and doug about what we heard from steve liesman

today. their message was, especially from blankfein, if we get entitlement cuts yes, business should go along with tax increases as a solution to our debt deficit problem. paula, do you think that's the right answer from business and doug, is that the right answer for republicans? >> i heard those statements earlier today and i think it is a great representation of the kind of creativity we really are going to have to bring to these challenging economic times and i think the biggest theme from the debt reduction effort so far is, everything should be on the table and i think that's what the president has said and i think that's what you will hear tonight from joe biden. >> john, it's a great question. i think there are three components. you know we do have to have a strong foundation of growth. i think it's just a statement of the facts that we won't make

progress on budget deficits unless the economy is growing. and the second thing we need to do is really just stop the bleeding. we've had four straight years of trillion dollar deficits and no progress on that. it's time to have a commitment to fix it. the third is use the bowles-simpson template so that we know that this is a national moment of truth, it is something the business community cares about, a threat to them, it has to be controlled, primarily it's a spending problem, but if you need more revenue the revenue is tax reform which has lower rates and a broader base. certainly that's what mitt romney and paul ryan are preaching right now. >> okay. thank you, doug. there's no better curtain razor than simpson and bowles on our air today. if you need more than that to set up a debate you is a problem. the live shot of danville, kentucky, the audience being briefed on the ground rules. nine segments of ten minutes each, ranging from everything from foreign and domestic policy. we'll see the candidates shortly. i believe they mostly arrived at center college in danville. the main event coming up. next the undercard.

>> on the left you have former obama auto czar steven ratner, on the right former hp ceo and former republican senate candidate carly fiorina. which side is winning the battle of jobs in america? this race is getting nasty. >> they go out and systematically told banks all of us knew weren't true. >> it's a simple matter of arithmetic. smooth liar about this. >> liar. >> liar. >> liar. >> using the word liar has become widespread this election season. barack obama tweeting tonight casual of fibs, flat out falsehoods what will paul ryan pull out at tonight's debate. the cnbc fact chektsing team sees if anyone is lying about lying. ♪ [ piano ]

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don't just watch tonight's vice presidential debate, participate in it. the twiker will run at the bottom of your screen. tweet your thoughts to #cnbc 2012 and watch your comments roll. and go to cnbc.com to vote in the poll. tell us which vice presidential candidate you think had the upper hand. well, sometimes in these debates the debaters have been known to stretch the truth a little. >> don't worry. our senior correspondent scott kohn and his team of fact checkers will analyze every word and make sure nobody gets away

with anything fishy. >> we will do our best. one of the reasons we are here with our team of fact checkers is the facts themselves are an issue now. take a look the at tweet about 20 minutes ago from the obama campaign. casual fibs, flatout falsehoods, what other misleading gamuts will paul ryan pull out tonight? that tweet in the name of the president. watch for joe biden to accuse romney and ryan of running away from what the obama campaign calls a $5 trillion tax cut. >> they had a plan that cost $5 trillion in tax cuts. and last night, last night, romney said, no, i don't have such a plan. >> that's joe biden last week. paul ryan has a comeback for that. here is on the stump monday in ohio. >> because president obama does not have a good record to run on, he has resorted to trying to distort ours. >> for the record, as we found

out last week, the romney/ryan 20% tax cut does cost $4.8 trillion over ten years, but the plan is to pay for it by closing unspecified loopholes. plenty more for of us to fact check, health care, defense spending and the fiscal cliff and that's just domestic policy. what about libya, the middle east, china? we are all here. we want your help on twitter and e-mail. we've all got our work cut out. >> #cnbc 2012. thanks so much, scott. >> sure to be a talker at tonight's debate is the fiscal cliff. lloyd blankfein saying the country's current path just sustainable. >> we may get through the fiscal cliff, by deferring it or by having something where in the long run it's not sustainable because our budget deficit will keep growing wider and wider and the people that have to make decisions won't regard it as a long-term solution. we need to fix the economy of the united states on a sustainedble basis so there's some predictability so people

don't stand on the sidelines and so they go and invest and so jobs get created. >> of course it is the debt and deficit issue which is why paul ryan chose paul ryan to be had his running mate in the first place. bring in carly fiorina, former hewlett-packard ceo and cnbc contributor and steve ratner, former u.s. treasury auto adviser and a cnbc contributor. good evening to you both. want to talk fiscal cliff but scott's point about the word liar being loadsed tonight is that wise for biden? to what degree are you allowed to be aggressive when you are still the 15th longest serving senator in history? >> i think that is -- there's a level of aggressiveness that's appropriate. to call out congressman ryan on the facts is appropriate. i don't think you need to be calling each other liars in a debate. we hopefully well will have a much more thoughtful and content rich debate than that. >> al thee steven, i've been shocked by how much this $5

trillion tax cut has been debated back and forth. each side is convinced they're right and trying to push out this story. do we get an answer on that from either side? >> i don't think it's complicated. ryan and romney have proposed a $5 trillion -- >> not with the loopholes being closed. >> to be paid for by closing a bunch of loopholes which they have refused to specify. so those are the facts. i don't think there's any disagreement about the facts. what are the $5 trillion of loopholes they're going to close? they haven't spes tied one of them. therefore it's fair to call it a $5 trillion tax cut when they specify how they're going to raise the offsetting revenue it won't be anymore. >> carly, expect we'll get any specifics on that tonight? >> i sure hope so. let's look at the record here. first of all, we should remember that president obama promised to cut the deficit in half in his first term. he clearly hasn't done that. the other day in the debate, had he said that he had a plan to reduce the deficit that was on his website. he's never said another word

about it. he also has a tax increase plan that we don't have many specifics about. the truth is, that obama and biden haven't offered specifics or leadership to close this gap for some time. i expect that biden is going to try and paint ryan as a callous, cold, uncaring person, he will attack him on his plan and i think what ryan needs to do is talk about the romney/ryan plan in terms that people can understand, as both practical and empathetic, but i also think ryan can and should attack biden and say where were you in trying to propose some solution to the fiscal cliff? why didn't we go forward with a plan to reduce the deficit. these guys have been in charge for four years and they don't have a lot to show for it. >> steven, that sounds like an invitation to get lost in the weeds to become the policy wonk that we know both of these two gentlemen are, and let's be honest this is about trying to convince a married woman somewhere in ohio to go republican or democrat versus

the other way. how is that going to play? how are details going to play at all tonight? >> i think it's important to have details, just as we saw in the last debate. i think while you could easily get lost in the weeds, i think people came away with an impression as to what each side stood for. i would just say with respect to carly's comments it's not true that obama and biden do not have a budget. they have one. it's called the fiscal year 13 budget they put out that goes into excruciating detail, far more detail than romney and ryan has gone into as to how they would achieve substantial deficit reduction over the next ten years. the president has been much more specific about his budget plans than romney and ryan have been. >> i guess the problem i have with that is, it's always somehow out in the future. the truth is, that this president hasn't proposed a budget, a budget hasn't been passed by a democratic senate in three and a half years. there is no budget. so while i agree that there's a

danger that ryan could sink into wonky-dom i don't think that's helpful, i think there's a clear contrast to be made here in terms of plans that actually can be put into place versus a lot of hot air and rhetoric and honestly joe biden is great at hot air, but he hasn't gotten a lot done. >> guys, i think we will all hope for a little wonkiness in specifics tonight. carly and steve, thank you very much. we appreciate it. >> thanks. >> up next the main event. >> vice president joe biden and congressman paul ryan, a frequent guest on "squawk" starts in five minutes on cnbc. [ male announcer ] the 2013 smart comes with 8 airbags, a crash management system and the world's only tridion safety cell which can withstand over three and a half tons.

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guy, mid western appeal. if he allows that to shine through tonight he will do really well. >> you know, jared, jay leno said the one thing he thinks biden needs to do is not be himself. what do you think he needs to do. >> i disagree with that. i think he's very good actually at tying the policy nuances to people's lives in a way that i think viewers will connect with and most importantly, he's got to clarify some waters that were very muddy. these guys are far less moderate than you get coming away from the first debate. >> it's been said today, everyone is trying to lower expectations. we're used to that game. he was so rusty in the early prep he even threw his own advisers for a loop. you probably know him better than anyone here. >> i have been scolded by the vice president myself, so i know what that's like. look you're going to see a disciplined, well-prepped vp tonight but i agree with sara, he has a contender up there with paul ryan. >> i want to say, paul ryan he's

got to have a message too. i want to do the folksy stuff in janesville and nobody wants him to be a policy wonk and if he falls into that trap -- >> i like that stuff but -- >> i like that myself too but that's just me. paul has to have a strong message and part of the message has to be economic growth. he has to do what mitt romney did a week ago which is relate to people who are in trouble. i mean, we've had some better unemployment numbers by some measures but by broader measures the unemployment rate is still around 15%. and ryan's got to address tax reform and entitlement reform, spending reform, and most of all, growth, growth, growth. >>. >> [ inaudible ]. >> on growth one strong point that the vice president can make is that we really do have some momentum. we're not where we need to be by any stretch of the imagination but we're moving in that direction and the last jobs reports may have suggested a little bit more momentum than we thought we had. >> what did you get scolded fo